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4033
Number: 4032
From: "capri_16t"
Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:51 pm
Subject: [ASC McLaren ] Re: 85 Coupe Questions
Body:
[ASC McLaren ] Re: 85 Coupe Questions
|
|
I agree with you on the 86's being different animals. Sandy may
correct me on this, but from a technical point of view, the 86's
can't take the B-303 since the first years of speed density can't
take changes to the vacuum in the intake since the MAP sensor
doesn't have look-up table value for that much different of vacuum
that the B-303 makes. I was only trying to say even if some, most,
whatever 85's had different rocker arms, etc, it is still a
mismatched engine (to a degree). The intake, heads, and exhaust
really stop flowing WAY WAY before the B-303 does. And the B-303
doesn't start working when the rest of the stock equipment wants
to. There is definitely a low-torque loss if the proper gear isn't
put in (and I don't mean little 3.08s). I just think the stock 85
cam would perform better on the MOSTLY stock motor rather than a cam
that has a 284/284 duration with no gear in the back. I am sure
there are as many stories as a 85 McLaren with a B-303 beating a
stock cammed 85 as there are as many stories as I can tell you of a
stock cammed 85 beating a mostly stock GT/Capri with a B-303. I
personally do not like a B-303 on a stock 302, but I realize it is a
starting point. The car would perform a lot better with a 3.55 gear
in the back with an edelbrock performer intake. This would really
allow the B-303 to work in its power range. As I said - don't get
me wrong, I still love my 85. Just bringing up some of my (possibly
useless) tech info. Been racing 1/8 mile track since 1989 with a
stock 85 and stock 86. We saw plenty of 85, etc. that ONLY had the
B-303 swap since that was mainly the only thing FORD had at the time
for an upgrade. I was very disappointed at the results I saw. That
is when I came to the conclusion - it is not the cam, its everything
else that wasn't changed that hurt the performance....
Sorry for the lengthly run-on(s), just enjoy writing about 5.0's.Jason
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, John Gemelli <jgemelli@o...>
wrote:
> You really can't bunch 85's and 86's together. The animal was
totally
> different. The 86's didn't come with the B303 and the 85 5 speed
coup's
> that did had a bit more engine work done to them. I thinks Sandy
has the
> details.
>
> Regards,
> John (too many cars!)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "capri_16t" <capri_50@m...>
> To: <ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:12 AM
> Subject: [ASC McLaren ] Re: 85 Coupe Questions
>
>
> One more comment about the B-303. I had another mustang with a B-
> 303. Maybe someone could tell me different, but my experience is
> the B-303 sounds real good, but the B-303 likes a compression ratio
> of nothing less than a 9.0-9.5. The 85 had a compression ratio of
> 8.5. Mix together a B-303 cam that likes to perform at 4,000-6,000
> rpm, a ford intake that "RUNS OUT" at 4,500rpm, a little 2.73/3.08
> gear that is really not matched for a B-303 cam, and closed up
> heads/exhaust and what you got is a good sounding engine that is
> really totally mismatched. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they did
> all they could do or at least what was allowed for them to do, but
I
> have seen stock 85/86's with the stock cam (torquey and desined for
> the intake/2.73's/3.08) beat the same type of car with an upgrade
to
> only a B-303. Not knocking my own mcLaren(s) - believe me - its
> just I think FORD/Mclaren should have have done a little math
before
> they released such a beautiful car that just wasn't matched right -
> in the motor department....
>
> Just my 2 cents....
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "capri_16t" <capri_50@m...>
wrote:
> > And thats another thing that goes through my head about the 'B'
> > cam. You realize that could be a reason that ALL record were
lost
> > on the 85's. So no one could prove that the motor was actually
> > emissions illegal... (Just a thought).....
> >
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, John Gemelli <jgemelli@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > Yep the car I was speaking of is a coupe. Something else to
> tell
> > you. The
> > > B303 was Motorsports first roller cam offering. If you notice
> the
> > B303 was
> > > not because the camshaft never got an EO#. In other words it
> was
> > not legal
> > > to sell it on any productions vehicle that was ever to see the
> > public
> > > highways. Sandy's description of it should tell folks why.
> > > The E303 was emissions exempt and could have been widely
> > advertized by ASC
> > > had it been available in 1985. It was not, nor was the F303
> > >
> > > My .02
> > > John (3 asc's)
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Sandy Block" <cigarsandy@c...>
> > > To: <ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 8:30 PM
> > > Subject: [ASC McLaren ] Re: 85 Coupe Questions
> > >
> > >
> > > The car's a COUPE, correct???
> > >
> > > Okay, the axle ratio thing was an oversight! ascMcLaren did
not
> > > think to check out the FoMoCo installed gearing, until mid-
> > production
> > > build of '85. The 2.73:1 was Std. in the GT with the 3.08:1 as
> a
> > no-
> > > charge option. The 3.08:1 shoulda been included with the D32
> > build,
> > > so that ALL cars got it, but it wasn't. This was corrected for
> > > the '86 build. Furthermore, SOME (I do not know what mandated
> > it!!)
> > > but SOME '86's had the 3.73:1 ratio, as does mine. Perhaps,
> > > again....a No Charge Option ????
> > > However, the 3.73:1 was NOT (repeat...NOT) available on an '86
> > Coupe
> > > with the 5-Speed Manual......only with the Automatic
> > Transmission. 5-
> > > Speeds got the 3.23:1. Nobody got the 2.73:1 and 5-speeds got
> the
> > > 3.08:1. While most automatics got the 3.23:1. Confused yet?
> > > Coupes...no 'verts got the B-303. I never heard of an E-303,
but
> > > these cars were so confused, nothing surprises me any longer!
> > > You can tell if your car has 303 as if it does, it will be
> lumpy,
> > > lumpy, lumpy at red lights, and when cold ! It will also
> sometimes
> > > stall about 3 minutes into "Warm-Up" on a cold AM.
> > >
> > > S A N D Y
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "capri_16t" <capri_50@m...>
> > wrote:
> > > > Good to know Sandy. Thank you. I just thought ALL came with
> > 3.08s.
> > > > Didn't realize it was an option. My 88 ASC has 3.08's, but
> > didn't
> > > > realize it was standard at that time and not before.
Everyday
> I
> > > > find something a little different on the 85s. My 85 also
came
> > with
> > > > an 85mph speedo. I know I read somewhere that most were
> suppose
> > to
> > > > come with a b-303 cam, but I don't seem to hear the typcial
> > > duration
> > > > sound that i am use to hearing when a regular mustang changes
> > their
> > > > stock grind to a B-303. My other 86 regular capri 5.0 with
an
> E-
> > > 303
> > > > sounds a lot more impressive than whatever this cam is. Is
it
> > > > possible that mine is a regular stock 85 cam or I am
expecting
> to
> > > > hear something out of a B-303 that really isn't
> there.....????
> > It
> > > > also amazes me that Ford would have put a B-303 cam in their
> > since
> > > > the FORD intake cuts off breathing WAY before their own B-303
> > likes
> > > > to operate and a 2.73 gear isn't hardly enough for a B-
> 303....
> > But
> > > > I have seen FORD do a lot more crazy things than that....
> Give
> > me
> > > > some more info SANDY.... :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jason
> > > >
> > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Block"
> > <cigarsandy@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > 1985's came with 2.73:1. The higher ratio was then a no-
> charge
> > > > > option, and became standard in the 1986's. (We're talkin'
> > coupes
> > > > > here).
> > > > >
> > > > > S A N D Y
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "capri_16t"
> <capri_50@m...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Have an interesting question. I have an 85 Blue/orange
> > capri.
> > > > > Door
> > > > > > sticker denotes axle code is 'M'. I thought 'M' is for
> > 2.73's
> > > > > > and 'Z' was for 3.08's. Did the 3.08's not get installed
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > rear until later (before the decal was made) or is this
> one
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > MANY freak mistakes which I happen to have by FORD and/or
> > > > Mclaren.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jason
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "negusm" <negusm@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > Sandy's Post #356 kind of describes it. There were no
> > > > documented
> > > > > > > options but it seems there were some undocumented ones
> on
> > the
> > > > > last
> > > > > > > of the '85s.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "negusm"
<negusm@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Yeah, I pulled that out from an old posting. I think
> > Sandy
> > > > > > > > clarified that actually some of the later 85's had
some
> > > > options
> > > > > > > > added.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, John Gemelli
> > > > <jgemelli@o...>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Maybe I misunderstand your chart but I think it's
> wrong
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > 85's as my
> > > > > > > > > Midnight blue coupe has
> > > > > > > > > Pop up sunroof, Power locks and a Remote hatch
> release
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > glovebox.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "negusm" <negusm@y...>
> > > > > > > > > To: <ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:56 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [ASC McLaren ] Re: 85 Coupe Questions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well the following I gleaned from all the
postings
> > as I
> > > > went
> > > > > > > > > > through...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Most of it is from sandy and I think it is fairly
> > > > > accurate.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > hasn't been cleaned up and may be somewhat
> > > jumbled...but
> > > > > > here
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > is...correct anything if it is wrong...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Coupe information:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mercury Capri Coupe GS, tagged with an ASC
Mclaren
> > body
> > > > tag
> > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > > > Ford code of D32 to
> > > > > > > > > > denote special order.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Standard Equipment:
> > > > > > > > > > These items were Extra in the Mustang GT, but
> > Standard
> > > > in
> > > > > > ALL
> > > > > > > > Capri
> > > > > > > > > > RS (GS?) 5.0L cars, and therefore also in all
> > > > asc/McLaren
> > > > > > > Coupes,
> > > > > > > > > > from the Dearborn Assembly Plant.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Power Windows
> > > > > > > > > > 2. Light Group
> > > > > > > > > > 3. Electric Rr. Defroster
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Items standard in the Mustang GT and Capri:
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Tinted Glass
> > > > > > > > > > 2. Tilt Steering Wheel
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Options (From Ford) Installed ON LINE at Dearborn
> on
> > > OUR
> > > > > > > COUPES,
> > > > > > > > > > were:
> > > > > > > > > > 1985
> > > > > > > > > > NONE
> > > > > > > > > > 1986
> > > > > > > > > > Power Door Locks
> > > > > > > > > > Remote Hatch Release
> > > > > > > > > > Air Conditioning (Standard in 1985)
> > > > > > > > > > Speed Control
> > > > > > > > > > Pop-Up Sun Roof
> > > > > > > > > > T-Roof
> > > > > > > > > > Automatic Transmission
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > All, except the Air Conditioning which was
> standard
> > in
> > > > 1985
> > > > > > > > > > (optional in 1986) were NOT available on 1985s.
> > > However,
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > near
> > > > > > > > > > the end of production of the 1985's asc/McLaren
> > > > > > added "Oxford
> > > > > > > > White"
> > > > > > > > > > as an alternative color choice to the "Midnight
> Navy-
> > > > Blue
> > > > > > > > Metallic",
> > > > > > > > > > and at that point, and only on the Oxford White
> cars,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > > allowed
> > > > > > > > > > the option of Power Door Locks/Remote Hatch
> release,
> > > and
> > > > > > Speed
> > > > > > > > > > Control.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > NO 1985s had the Pop-Up Sun Roof, nor the T-Roof,
> nor
> > > > > > Automatic
> > > > > > > > > > Transmission. 1985s in Oxford White with Pwr.
> Locks
> > &
> > > > > Speed
> > > > > > > > Control
> > > > > > > > > > are EXTREMELY rare, and I have only 2 on the
> > asc/McLaren
> > > > > > > > > > International Registry, after keeping the
Registry
> > now
> > > > for
> > > > > > 16
> > > > > > > > years!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Of the 1986's, just nine (9) were equipped with
the
> > > > > Automatic
> > > > > > > > > > Transmission, and the Pop-Up Sun Roof was on
> around
> > 20
> > > > > cars,
> > > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > > > > the T-Roof was on around 30 cars. Power Locks
were
> on
> > > > > around
> > > > > > 55
> > > > > > > > > > cars. I have never found an '86 withOUT A/Cond.
The
> > > > rarest
> > > > > > > combo
> > > > > > > > > > would have been an '86 in Platinum Silver
Metallic
> > with
> > > > > > Raven
> > > > > > > > Black
> > > > > > > > > > decals/logos/stripes, with a T-Roof, Pwr. Locks,
> > > > Automatic
> > > > > > > Trans.
> > > > > > > > > > However, no such car was built!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Engine Oddities in 1985:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Odd Sized Piston Rings...Normal ones are TRW
> Metric
> > Some
> > > > > > > > > > Ford Mustang 1.5mm.-1.5mm-4mm oil ring
> > > > > > > > > > Mercury Capri 1/16-1/16-156mm oil ring
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Some parts scribed with a P for PROTOTYPE by hand
> > > (Valve
> > > > > > > Guides,
> > > > > > > > > > Springs, etc).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Herewith are the actual alterations done to the
> > MOTOR,
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > Ford (F)
> > > > > > > > > > or by asc/McLaren (AM)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A) Upgrade Exhaust Header to Stainless Steel
> Internal
> > > > > > Mandrel
> > > > > > > > Bent
> > > > > > > > > > Incorporate Exhaust Port Liners Tuned With Lower
> > > > > Restriction
> > > > > > > > Exhaust.
> > > > > > > > > > B) Tuned Muffler To Reduce Back Pressure &
Enhance
> > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > Tone.
> > > > > > > > > > C) Replace Damper Units & Springs To Achieve
Better
> > > > > > Cornering
> > > > > > > & A
> > > > > > > > > > Softer
> > > > > > > > > > Ride than The TRX System.
> > > > > > > > > > D) Modify Camber Of Vehicle Front & Rear To
> Maximize
> > > > > > > Performance
> > > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > > Upgraded
> > > > > > > > > > Tire/Wheel Combination. Requires New Wheel
> Alignment.
> > > > > > > > > > E) Increase Suspension Bushing Durometer.
> > > > > > > > > > F) Revise Power Steering To Give More Feedback
> > > > Sensitivity
> > > > > > > > > > G) Change Shift Linkage To Shorten Throw & Give A
> > > > Tighter
> > > > > > Feel
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > 1984 & 1985
> > > > > > > > > > cars as well 5-Speed Manual 1986 cars.
> > > > > > > > > > H) Tires: Upgraded To P225x50:15" From
P225x60:15"
> Hi
> > > > > > > > Performance To
> > > > > > > > > > Maximize
> > > > > > > > > > Handling & Ride Quality & Enhance Lowered Effect
Of
> > > > Vehicle
> > > > > > > B.F.
> > > > > > > > > > Goodrich
> > > > > > > > > > "Comp T/A"
> > > > > > > > > > I) Replace Valve Springs & Rocker Arms To
Increase
> > > > Usable
> > > > > > Rev.
> > > > > > > > Limit
> > > > > > > > > > to 7,000 R.P.M.
> > > > > > > > > > J) B-303 Ford MotorSport Hi-Po Cam
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Radios
> > > > > > > > > > The Speakers in the front were stock Ford
> > > > > > > > > > The 2 in the hatch were Kenwood.
> > > > > > > > > > They were housed in a rectangle flat black
housing
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > KENWOOD stamped
> > > > > > > > > > in the top part of the framework.
> > > > > > > > > > The stereo in the 1984 & 1985 was by Kenwood.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ground Effects
> > > > > > > > > > You do not need a fog light bar. I would think
the
> > > > > > directions
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > point out that
> > > > > > > > > > you need to remove and not reuse a stock fog
light
> > bar
> > > > in
> > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > install the
> > > > > > > > > > airdam. My '85 just had the screws going into
some
> > nut-
> > > > > serts
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > the urethane.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Front Nose was originally a GS
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rear End
> > > > > > > > > > 3.08:1 Axle Upgrade over 2.73:1
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Light Group" which was an
> > > > > > > > > > option (order code 934) on the Capri in 1984.
> > > > > > > > > > The "Light Group" includes:
> > > > > > > > > > Third-door courtesy light switch
> > > > > > > > > > Ashtray light (front)
> > > > > > > > > > Glove box light
> > > > > > > > > > Dual-beam dome lamp
> > > > > > > > > > Engine compartment light
> > > > > > > > > > Headlamps-on warning buzzer
> > > > > > > > > > Locking fuel filler door w/remote release
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In 1985 the "Light Group" became standard
> equipment
> > and
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > carried
> > > > > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > > > to 1986 as well.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Light Covers
> > > > > > > > > > They were made by a vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > formed machine, from clear lexan plastic. They
> have 2
> > > > holes
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > that small screws go thru, and down into the
> plastic
> > > > frame
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > headlights. On the bottom of them is supposed to
> be
> > two
> > > > > tabs
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > velcro that "hook up" to two receiving tabs of
> > oppisite
> > > > > > velcro,
> > > > > > > > > > stuck
> > > > > > > > > > to the top of the bumper cover, but out of sight
as
> > > they
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > the headlamps. If properly installed, they do not
> > leak.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > taillampcovers, on the other hand, do
occassionaly
> > leak
> > > > > > > moisture.
> > > > > > > > > > NEVER remove the taillight covers to clean!
> Changes
> > of
> > > > > > > breaking
> > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > in the re-install are like 85% !
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Wheels
> > > > > > > > > > 225/60 15" wheels and 25.63 total height top to
> > bottom
> > > > with
> > > > > > > tire.
> > > > > > > > > > <==Help to calc speedo gear.
> > > > > > > > > > 225/50 15" wheels and 23.90 <===These are the
> correct
> > > > tires.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Block"
> > > > > > > > <cigarsandy@c...>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Oh, Also.......
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Springs were designed by McLaren, and were
> purpose
> > > > built
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > spec.
> > > > > > > > > > > Shocks were by Carerra in Georgia. 50/50
> Shocks,
> > the
> > > > > OEMs
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > either WHITE or GOLD exterior casing. They are
> > still
> > > > > > > > available &
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > have the part numbers if anyone needs them.
> > > > > > > > > > > Air Horn by Fila ('Ya the sportswear Mfg'r.)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
--- In ascmclaren@yahoogroups.com, Tom G
> > > > > > <speedracer815@y...>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm curious about the alterations made to the
> > > > coupes.
> > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > > seen
> > > > > > > > > > > ASC's sales "brochure" and it really doesn't
say
> > > > anything
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > performance modifications.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I understand they were DSO'd with the B303
> cam.
> > Any
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > changes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > I also know springs and shocks were
different,
> > but
> > > > does
> > > > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > the actual spring rates?
> > > > > > > > > > > > As an aside, I'm constantly amazed at the
> depth
> > of
> > > > > > Sandy's
> > > > > > > > > > > knowledge. Sandy, were you an ASC employee
during
> > > that
> > > > > > > period?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tax Center - File online, calculators,
> > > forms,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
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